Keys to building winning teams at work

Chris Dyer, whose recent book details seven pillars of corporate culture, joined the Journal of Accountancy podcast from the Future of Finance Summit in San Diego to explain some of the ways companies can get culture right — and the ways they get it wrong.

For instance, Dyer said that a common approach of individuals and organizations, after a strengths and weaknesses assessment, is to think about the areas where their performance is mediocre.

“They want to … start with the ones they’re OK with,” Dyer said. “I say go after the one where you’re terrible, and you fix that, and your people all of a sudden get excited.”

Also, get insight, in the form of a quick-hitting sound clip to close the episode, on how high-level thinking serves a CPA who played in the NFL.

What you’ll learn from this episode:

• Why Dyer got into the exploration of team and corporate culture.
• Dyer’s assertion that building company culture is more science than art.
• The value of saying “yes” more often — and strategies to pull it off.
• Why he says it’s not valuable for companies and individuals to focus on improving their “so-so” skills.
• A recap of the JofA Q&A with an NFL player turned CPA, just in time for the Super Bowl.

Play the episode below or read the edited transcript:

— To comment on this episode or to suggest an idea for another episode, contact Neil Amato at Neil.Amato@aicpa-cima.com.

Transcript

Neil Amato: Welcome back to the Journal of Accountancy podcast. This is Neil Amato with the JofA recording at the Future of Finance Summit in San Diego. It is late 2024, and Chris Dyer, who has just spoken at the summit, is joining me on the podcast. Chris, thanks for being on the show.

Chris Dyer: Hey, thanks for having me.

Amato: Yeah. Really excited after seeing some but not all of your session, and I know you had some good interaction with the attendees, and we’re going to go over some of those interactions but also some things about you.

First thing I want to ask you is, it says on your website, “My life’s quest has been to uncover what makes teams succeed or falter.” Why do you like thinking about teams, whether they’re business teams or sports teams or whatever?

Dyer: I think it started off with sports teams growing up. I remember being on teams where we won every game in every season and we were the champions, and I do remember four years in a row of being on a soccer team where we lost every single game. My parents were friends with the coach, so they kept signing me up to be on this team and I go, “We keep losing. I lose every game.” The coach was great, and I remember the kids were great and we had a good time, but we lost. Why did we lose? Was it the talent? Was it what we did or what we didn’t do?

I remember wanting to figure that out but not having the capacity or the ability or the knowledge to even fathom what was going into the dynamics of a 13-year-old’s soccer game or soccer team. But that curiosity carried with me because I wanted to do well and I wanted us to win and I wanted us to succeed or whatever those goals were. So, as I got older and I then found myself coaching and found myself leading, that question kept coming back — because we’ve all been on teams and been in jobs where things work, and they are great.

I think for a lot of us, you don’t think about it. You’re like, well, this is just a good team. They must be talented people. This must be a good company and that’s why it worked, and then you go to another job and it doesn’t work, and it’s because the boss is a jerk or whatever. What I found is that it’s far more complex than that. There’s a lot more going on in there. I think it’s a misnomer that, “Oh, it’s really talented people,” because I’ve been on teams of really talented people that did not perform.

Amato: Yeah, they don’t always mesh, for sure. Roy Williams, the former Kansas and University of North Carolina basketball coach, said something that has always resonated with me. It’s as simple as this: “We all want to be part of a team.” I think that notion matters, but it’s tougher these days in a dispersed-workforce world to feel like you’re part of a team. What I want to ask you is how do you unite a dispersed workforce?

Dyer: Sure. I was really fortunate to have a lot of people reporting to me that were working all over the country and some around the world. The first thing is you have to think about connection and how to create that environment for people in a very different way than how you do if you’re all in the same office. When we’re in the same office, we have proximity. Proximity is one of the most important components of friendship, of relationships, and teamwork.

It’s sort of like, if you ever had a really good friend at work and then you change jobs or they change jobs and you stop being friends, you might send Christmas cards or whatever, but you kind of lost it, and you may even be sad about it, but that’s because proximity was the most important part of your relationship. You may have gone to school with somebody and then once you stop going to school with them — and you see them on social media? — and so when proximity is not the reason why we are connected, we are connected because there is purpose.

We are connected because we collaborate with each other in a special way. We are connected because we value each other and what makes us special and unique and different and what makes us the same sometimes. We have to find deeper levels of connection that are not reliant on proximity.

Amato: That’s well said. One thing that you said in your session that stuck with me: Building culture, to you, is far more science than art. I guess I probably would have said it’s more art, but tell me about why it’s more science.

Dyer: We know if you do these five things or these 10 things, we consistently see the same result. That’s science. This is what science is built on. We do something, we observe it, and we expect the result to happen again and again, and if that does, then the theory becomes fact, or it becomes proven. An art is like, “Well, I’m just going to throw this stuff together in some creative way.” There are some really creative leaders out there that can throw things together and can make a culture, but that doesn’t work for most of us.

What works for us is to think about it in a science or systematic way to say, I need to do these seven things really well. If you do those seven things well, you will have a great culture. Assuming you’re selling something of value, assuming that there are some slightly other outside factors, but you have a company, if you do these seven things that I talked about in my book and I talked about in our workshop today, it is proven over and over again that you will do well, your people will be happy, and you can be a leader in your industry.

Amato: Now, I think you’ve written two books or maybe it’s two books, but one is an update, so it’s three books. Is that right? One of those is something you mentioned, seven pillars of corporate culture is the topic of your most recent book. Is that right?

Dyer: The Power of Company Culture, second edition, is the book. I did the first version. If you ever think about writing a book or you do write a book: Your first book is terrible [laughter]. No matter how much you prepare and try, the moment you’re done and you give it to the publisher, you’re like, “Oh, man. I can do better here. I can do better there.” I was so happy when the publisher came back to me and said, “Would you like to do an update? We thought that’d be fun.” And I was like, “Please. I have more case studies, I have more things to say, I want to fix this thing, I want to correct that thing.” I’m so proud of this second edition. Whereas the first one, I was like, I’m proud I’m an author, but it’s an OK book. But the second edition I’m really happy with.

Amato: You mentioned case studies. Tell me some of the good stories that came out of those case studies that helped you build the case for this book.

Dyer: I worked with some different organizations. I did a case study with Southwest Airlines. I did a case study with Vayner Media. Their chief heart officer, Claude Silver, talked about how they do recognition and how they really connect with people in a deep and meaningful way. They have a huge organization. Gary Vaynerchuk is a very out there, maybe even polarizing at times, figure. He is loud, he’s cursing every third word, and you wouldn’t expect their organization to be a place where love and compassion and deep connection happens. You wouldn’t expect him to have hired her to be the chief heart officer. That’s her title, and yet that really is a part of it.

When we looked for deep examples, and I talked about, too, with how I view recognition, and I wanted to find an opposite truth about how to do recognition. In Caesars Entertainment, I did a big case study with them on how they do their recognition programs, which was very different than my recognition program because there isn’t just one way to do stuff. The way I have set the framework for the pillars is that you need to figure out how to do it best for you. What does transparency look like for you? What does recognition look like for you? Then do it the best you possibly can to make the organization best. You can look at best practices for different companies and take examples, but it’s about figuring out what works for you.

Amato: You talked about this notion, and maybe it was a quote, I think, from Shonda Rhimes? She was told, “You say no to everything.” I don’t know that we need to go into that example, but I’m sure there are plenty of people who might have had that said about them. Assuming they want to change, how can they stop saying no to everything or at least stop being known as that person?

Dyer: Yeah, it’s tough. I remember as my company grew, I would say “no more” often. And as my company grew, my time got shorter. I was saying “no more” to my family and to my friends, and it got harder. Then you suddenly realize that you’re not happy, and things aren’t going the way you want them to.

What I always suggest is that you try something intentional. Try an entire day of saying yes, try an entire week and see what happens. Again, don’t tell anyone you’re going to do this. Don’t let anybody take advantage of you. But if you secretly say in your head, “Today I’m going to say yes to every question. Yes and, and yes but,” — that’s your way to navigate that. You will find that people want to be around you more. They want to bring you ideas. They want to connect with you. They want to hang out with you. They want to help you solve that problem, and it’s just such a better way of existing.

I had to do a whole year of saying yes to everything to finally get to the point to really figure out where to say yes most of the time and where I might need to say no some of the time. But I was in such a habit of saying no. I had to go the other extreme for a whole year to get rid of that habit.

Amato: You used the example of maybe one of your teenagers asking about driving the car. Can you explain the difference between, “No, you can’t drive the car” and what maybe you could say?

Dyer: We would typically say, “Well, no, you can’t drive the car, you haven’t done your chores or you haven’t done your homework.” Instead, you could say, “Yes, you can drive the car after you finish your homework.” The other one is like, “Can I go to this party?” Yes, but there needs to be an adult there.

Amato: It may be the same as with an employee. “Do you have time to meet today? I know you’re really busy.” Instead of saying, “You’re right, I’m really busy. No, can’t do it.” “Yes, but it’s going to have to be after traditional work hours, or we can schedule some time next week.”

Dyer: Right. “Yes. I can meet with you, but I only have five minutes at 2 o’clock today. That works for you, cool. If not, let’s find another time on my calendar.” You’re saying yes, you’re figuring it out. We know that there are things that come up that are out of our control, that sometimes people want us to do things we can’t do. That’s why that “yes and” and “yes but” still helps us navigate that. “Yes, but you’re going to have to get Tom to allow that. I’m fine with it, but Tom’s the one who’s stopping you here.”

Amato: Are there any specific takeaways from being around this audience today? For those who don’t know, it’s mainly finance executives from larger companies.

Dyer: I certainly was quite encouraged at how much structure they have around some of the things that we talked about. We did quite a bit of surveying of them throughout my talk in the workshop part and asking them how much they do with certain programs or how the other people may feel in different situations. By seeing that and also hearing their reflections, it was really refreshing.

I think some of them are in very mature businesses. Some of the brands that were in the room are very recognizable brands. It’s not always the case. Some of the audiences that I have sometimes are smaller SMBs, smaller mom-and-pop businesses. [This audience] had some really specific things in place.

It’s a good reminder because I often tell people it’s not about what you’re not doing. It’s really important to look at, if you look at my seven pillars, which of the pillars are you doing really well? Take that, put it up in the shelf. That’s cool. Keep doing it.

Which are the ones that you’re doing OK at? Identify those. Are there any pillars that you are not doing or you are terrible at? Usually, what people do is they want to go and start with one of the ones they’re OK with. The problem is that you do some changes and you improve, but it’s not that noticeable to everybody.

Amato: It’s very incremental.

Dyer: It’s incremental. I say, go after the one where you’re terrible, and you fix that, and your people all of a sudden get excited. Now there’s energy in the culture, and you say, now we’re going to go solve the next thing, and you got people volunteering left and right because they realize it’s going to really make an impact.

Amato: This is inside baseball question, but because you are a veteran of doing podcasts and we are talking on a podcast that I’m partial to, the topic of internal podcasts came up. I don’t know that we need to even get into the company name. I’m not even sure I remember which one it was, but there are a few examples of that being a new way or a better way in some ways to communicate messages.

Dyer: Yeah, anything we can do to diversify how we deliver messages to our people. I remember I used to have to send an email to a certain group of people. I had to text other people or put it in Slack. I had to get on a call and do a Zoom call for certain groups of people, and it was annoying, but at the same time, if I would give my message in multiple mediums at different times, I was sure that the employee base at large generally understood the direction and were going to move and act on what I said. If I was stubborn and said, “Well, I’m going to send an email only,” I was not being effective as a leader because they weren’t going to do it.

What we’ve seen is the podcast has become so popular that if we can record a podcast — and there are ways to make it private and only accessible to people through, whether it’s a password or it’s only hosted on SharePoint or something that can lock it down — we can talk about things internally and allow people to listen and make up their own minds and digest that on their own time in their own way and how they want. Maybe they want to do it while they’re on their Peloton in the morning. They want to listen to what the CEO is thinking about today. That’s an important medium.

Amato: That’s way better, as you said, than reading a 37-page report or something like that.

Dyer: Right. For some people, the 37-page report is exactly what they want, and for others, they want the podcast.

Amato: An AI transcript of a podcast is pretty reasonable, if they want to do it that way.

Dyer: There’s NotebookLM now, which can take a 30-page report and turn that into a podcast as well. There are so many ways for companies to think about this.

Amato: This has been really fun, Chris, kind of surprising. I’m not saying surprising that it was fun, but just we’ve gone in surprising directions. Anything you’d like to add as a closing thought and maybe a look ahead to 2025?

Dyer: 2025 for me feels like it’s going to be unpredictable. I’m not putting a good or a bad label on that. It just feels like it might be a little unpredictable, that we might not know exactly what’s going to happen, whether that’s business or politics or whatever.

We need to be prepared to be agile and to be able to make shifts and adjust and be gearing ourselves up for, when that unexpected thing happens, we’re ready to address it and we’re ready to figure out how to be nimble and keep things going.

Amato: Thanks again to author and speaker Chris Dyer for his time in San Diego. It’s three days before the Super Bowl, so, to close out this episode, we’re mentioning our recent Q&A with a football player turned CPA.

The JofA’s Bryan Strickland talked to Richie Brockel, a former Carolina Panther and Boise State University Bronco, who offered perspective on the value that being a CPA and having been an NFL player brings to his work life.

In this clip, Brockel shares that while many people associate accounting and football with numbers, excelling at both is about so much more.

Richie Brockel: That’s the funny thing, everybody always says, “You must be good at math.” But the bigger piece of it — and I think the piece that you learn as you move up — is being able to take those high-level overlooks of things and be like, “What’s really going on here, and how does this all fit together?”

That’s when you get really good at football, too, when you can kind of step back and you’re like, “OK, I know I have to block this defensive end, but what’s he going to do?” I’ve got to look back at the safeties and figure out what their coverage is. Are they blitzing? What’s the down and distance?

I think when you get stuck down in the weeds of all these little things, you’re stuck in the weeds. You can’t see the big picture. I think that’s the piece that people miss about the CPA profession. It’s being able to step back and have a high overlook of like, “What is this company doing, and how do these things fit into it?”

Amato: For more on Brockel, find the link in the show notes for this episode, or visit journalofaccountancy.com. I’m Neil Amato. Thanks for listening to the JofA podcast.