‘Go before you’re ready’: Advice for leaders in all walks of life

To Jen Croneberger, it’s easy for many in society to spend a lot of time planning to do big things but not always carrying out those plans. Taking an “if/then response approach” to life prevents accomplishing big goals, and so Croneberger advises people to take big leaps, even if they’re uncertain about having a safety net.

That’s one of several leadership concepts discussed on this JofA podcast episode. Croneberger, an author and consultant, is the keynote speaker June 17 at the AICPA & CIMA Not-for-Profit Industry Conference. In this conversation, she previews that session, explains the words behind the acronym BRAVE, and shares the importance of human-focused leadership in an AI-driven world.

Croneberger also responds to the topic of a JofA episode from April 2022 about how belief differs from arrogance.

What you’ll learn from this episode:

• A preview of Croneberger’s keynote session at the AICPA & CIMA Not-for-Profit Industry Conference in June.
• Why leadership is “a behavior, not a title.”
• Some of the ways she applies a sports background to her role as a consultant.
• Why Croneberger likes the leadership advice “Go before you’re ready.”
• How we can use digital devices to improve self-care.
• The importance, in Croneberger’s mind, of speaking openly about topics such as depression.

Play the episode below or read the edited transcript:

— To comment on this episode or to suggest an idea for another episode, contact Neil Amato at Neil.Amato@aicpa-cima.com.

Transcript

Neil Amato: Welcome back to the Journal of Accountancy podcast. This is Neil Amato with the JofA, and I’m happy to welcome guest Jen Croneberger to the show. She is delivering the keynote address at the AICPA & CIMA Not-for-Profit Industry Conference in June. Jen has written one book, with another on the way, which is about her keynote topic, so-called BRAVE leadership.

We will discuss what that word means to her and more in this conversation. We’ll include a link in the show notes for the conference’s agenda and sign-up page. Jen, first, we’re glad to have you here. I was hoping you could kind of preview the session and tell attendees what they can expect to learn about.

Jen Croneberger: Excellent, Neil, thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here. First of all, I’m excited. I’m always excited to get in front of a group of leaders and people who want a more human-centered approach to leadership. Because that’s what we’re going to talk about.

I think when I came up with the BRAVE human leadership model — and I’m going to give it to you right now: BRAVE stands for belonging, resilience, authenticity, vulnerability, and empathy — what I’ve found to be true is in our everyday lives today and especially given the past handful of years that we’ve just lived through, I think the most important thing we can do as a leader is to bring that human-centered approach.

I think also as we move into a digital age, the AI transformation and all of the things that we’re going to see happen, I keep seeing articles and research and all the things that are done to show us the importance of that human-centered approach, that human skills are going to be the most important thing we can have moving forward.

We’ve centered around this idea of BRAVE, and we dig into this from a standpoint of these five words, the five that make up BRAVE. Recognizing that belonging is the gold standard and the ultimate goal for creating the right culture and to be the right leader that creates that culture and can sustain it. Secondly, being able to flex that resiliency muscle, which I think we have really, we’ve been doing that a lot lately.

Amato: Yes.

Croneberger: We certainly have, I think, a stronger resiliency muscle than maybe we’ve had in our lifetimes. But it also proves that we can and that we are as human beings very resilient. But ways that we can bring that into our leadership role is paramount.

The third is knowing that authenticity is about more than just being real. It’s about being able to show up as your full, whole self and being as transparent and real and genuine as you possibly can. Research has shown us that those who lead from that direction, those who show up — again, I use the word lead, I believe strongly that leadership is a behavior, not a title, and so each one of us has this ability to lead in some capacity in our lives, whether we hold a title that is “a leader” or not.

When I talk about authenticity as a leader, as a person that shows up that way, it’s about being able to be genuine and to be our whole self and not leave half of us at home when we show up at work as we were told to do in previous days. Then vulnerability is the fourth. But to use vulnerability to harness the power of emotional intelligence and to connect as human beings.

There’s a whole neuroscience that goes on behind that, that I won’t get into right now. But it’s very intriguing, and I think for us, like I said, moving into this digital space of transformation and where we’re going, to really lean into that right now is critical.

Then the last is really mastering the art of empathy. Understanding how compassion and empathy can show up in the ways of human connection and really focusing there. Being very human-centered and results-driven is what we’re about. That’s pretty much the idea behind the BRAVE acronym.

Amato: Thank you for that overview. In the summary for the keynote, it mentions something about BRAVE leaders “know when to initiate courageous conversations and when to listen, when to challenge, when to support.” What to you are the components of those courageous conversations?

Croneberger: I think that there’s something to be said about how we go about some of those, and some people call them courageous conversations. I call them connective conversations. I also call them difficult conversations sometimes, right? We’ve all had them.

But when we approach these sometimes difficult or challenging moments as a leader or just as a human being, I think if we center back to this human approach and the way that we connect with each other, I think there’s something to be said about that. I did a lot of study. My background tells you my master’s degree is in sports and human performance psychology.

I’ve worked with professional athletes and little kids and everything in between. What I found was it was all the same stuff. It was about how we show up every day. It was about how we build teams and how we lead them. It was about confidence and how we show up after a mistake. How we regroup and be able to pick ourselves up — that resiliency piece. I think being able to learn how to be a really great listener in those moments is critical.

I think so many of us I’m sure are moving at the speed of light, and we are trying to do 87 things at one time. What obviously the neuroscience teaches us is that we really can’t focus on more things than one at a time. The brain just doesn’t do that. In studying some of that neuroscience behind why we do the things we do and how we show up, I have found that there’s this thing that happens in the brain when we are connected with someone. I’ve heard people say this terminology: Neurons that fire together wire together.

As we’re connected — right before we started this podcast, Neil, you and I were talking about baseball. That’s a quick little connection that we had, that moment. The brain does what’s called neural coupling or synchrony. When we are aligned on a topic or when we connect with someone and there’s a shared experience — maybe it’s a hobby, maybe we like the same music — whatever that is, the brain seeks that out because that’s what lights us up.

When we don’t have that, it’s called cognitive disharmony or disconnect, and the brain is constantly searching to find it. If you’ve ever been somewhere where your cellphone wasn’t working and maybe you have bad service and it says “searching,” and you notice how quickly that drains your battery. Well, the same is true with our brain.

That’s why sometimes going into these conversations that can be difficult — it’s not just you. It’s not that we avoid these — you know, people say, “I don’t like confrontation.” It’s not that we’re avoiding the conversation. Our brain is actually trying to avoid the conversation because it sees that as way too much work.

We know that we have to search and search, and that’s exhausting, so we’re just not going to do it. In talking about how to have these conversations, for me, I thought it was really insightful to understand that this actually is a real thing. Conflict avoidance is not just because we don’t feel like it or we’re lazy. It really is part of what goes on in the brain.

Teaching ourselves how to actually overcome that and to focus on “let me build connection with someone” — that makes those conversations because in connection we build trust. Trust can’t exist in a vacuum. We build this trust out of this connection, and now we’re able to have these conversations a little bit easier.

Amato: You mentioned your sports and performance psychology background. I think it’s a very interesting overall background you have from what I’ve learned. You’ve been a bartender, you’ve been a corporate employee, a high school and college softball coach, and now serve as a consultant to companies.

You mentioned also, you use that phrase, building the muscle, flexing the muscle, the resiliency muscle. So it’s kind of an athletic analogy. I guess I’m paraphrasing here, but in an earlier podcast interview, you said about athletic training, the untapped potential is in the brain. How can the realization about the brain in sports be applied to leadership?

Croneberger: I love that question. Thank you for that. I think, right when you say that, the thing that lights up in my brain is the fact that we’re so much more capable than we even know. That applies to being a leader, that applies to being a human. I think it’s amazing when — and you might see someone go through something negative or someone going through loss or grief or whatever it is that feels so insurmountable to the outsider when you’re watching it. I don’t even know how they’re going through this. I know we’ve all been in that situation where we can see someone like, wow, I don’t even know how they got through that. The fact of the matter is when you’re in it, you just do.

That’s part of that idea of the unlimited potential of the brain is so vast that we don’t even know. I think what’s really cool about that is that as we push our own limits as human beings and as leaders and the ability to learn and grow, we also push those limits in our brain.

When you look at that from a sports perspective, I always looked at, how do I get as an athlete — because I was an athlete my whole life as well — how do I get faster, stronger, better? That’s always the question. I want to be faster, I want to be stronger, I want to jump higher. Whatever it is in our sport that makes us the best, I want to be that.

The question, though, was however you’re built, your body can only take you so far. We all have physical limitations, which quite frankly, I think is why we saw such an issue in that period of time where we saw steroid use grow — because people were trying to make a better body. That’s physically — we’re not capable of doing that. What we can do, however, is change our potential and our growth potential in our mind to actually push those boundaries a little bit further.

Couple of examples real quick. I’ll give you one that really I’ve seen ring true. I’m sure we’ve all heard of a story of an athlete that on paper was not the best athlete in the competition, but that athlete won. The question was always, would you prefer to have athlete A who has 90 units of potential but only uses 10% of them? So on paper, 90%, they’re pretty skilled. But athlete B only has 65 units of potential but uses 100% of them. Which athlete would you rather have on your team?

Amato: Just mathematically, it seems like 65 because it’s 100% of 65.

Croneberger: Exactly. The point there is, I think that there’s something to be said about mindset and approach over the physical attributes that we carry, because at any given time, we might not be using 100% of those or be able to tap into 100% of those. As far as mindset goes, though, there really isn’t a limitation there. We can move that beyond boundaries, which is really cool.

Amato: I love talking about the mindset topic. I think it’s a fun one. I did a podcast interview a few years back with a speaker. The title of the episode was, “The Power of Belief — and How It Differs From Arrogance.” We all know people who are confident and good at what they do. I’m just wondering, what’s that fine line between confidence and overconfidence or arrogance to you?

Croneberger: I always used to tell my athletes, there is a fine line between arrogance and confidence. Toe the line, never step over it. I think that still rings true. I think what happens, unfortunately, is I do this thing, I call it the confidence résumé. I’ve done this with professional athletes, I’ve done this with CEOs, I’ve done this with little kids, and the same is always true.

It’s difficult to fill it out sometimes. For most people, it’s a difficult thing to do. I give you about a minute. There’s a page that says 1 to 10. It’s so fascinating how hard that is for most of the population to sit there and write them down, and there’s a couple of reasons why. One, we are taught to be humble from the time we’re really little. We’re taught nobody wants to do hear you brag about yourself, be humble, and those are all important messages. I think, however, sometimes we’re taught that to a fault. The reason I say that is because I see a lot of people who can’t fill that page out.

I was speaking at an event, and there was a room full of men, and they were all high up in the company. I had them fill this out, and I said, let’s go around the room and just everyone give me one. This is how we were closing the day, and it usually builds this energy. And I went part way around and I saw the next guy up had nothing written on his page. And so my immediate prejudgment was, “Oh, you’re too cool for school, I see. OK, that’s fine.” Here, he looked up at me and he said, “I’m really struggling with this,” and there were tears. And so I had everyone else help him fill it out. Here, he had told me later that he was going through a divorce, and he felt like he was nothing.

We have no idea, first of all, what anyone else is going through at any given moment, and that’s that empathy piece. But what I’ve found in the confidence side of that was the recognition that for so many of us, we actually aren’t as confident as sometimes we may show up as or it may seem. There’s a lot of underlying stuff, and I love digging into that, but the question of tipping that scale into arrogance, I think what’s fascinating is arrogance so often is a false confidence. It’s someone who is really trying to overdo because they’re really not as confident as they will tell you. That’s really the underlying situation that I think is probably more prevalent, when you see that. That’s what I’ve seen to be true.

Amato: I guess along the confidence topic, I believe you’ve said you have these words plastered on a wall in your office, “Go before you’re ready.”

Croneberger: Yes.

Amato: Can you explain that concept?

Croneberger: Yeah, absolutely. The idea of go before you’re ready is, let’s be honest, we spend so much time planning to do something, don’t we? Here’s my goal, and when I hit that, I’m going to. We aim at these things and we go after these. We’re driven by goals and all the things that we can imagine and we plan out. As soon as I get to here, or when I lose the weight, or when I make the money, or when — and it’s a constant if/then response approach to life. The issue with that is if we wait till we’re ready, it’s never going to happen.

Every single one of us is inundated with stuff. We live in an age where we’re bombarded with millions of pieces of information in any given second. There’s so much noise. So when we wait, it doesn’t happen, and then we’re like, well that wasn’t meant to be or whatever it is. The idea of go before you’re ready is you get to that space where you’re standing at the cliff and you’re saying, “When the wind stops …”

I don’t know if you’re a golfer, but I am, and you go up to the tee box, and all of a sudden this wind starts, and you step off. You’re like, “I’m going to wait.” Then another gust comes — “I’m just going to wait. I’m just going to keep waiting.” Well, you can’t because there’s people waiting. It’s an idea of pushing you off of that cliff to say, yeah, you might not have built the whole net. But trust me, it’s going to be there. You’re going to figure it out on the way down. So, jump.

Anyone who is listening, who has that thing, maybe someday I’ll write a book, or someday I’m going to do this. I’m going to run a marathon — maybe. Go before you’re ready, because you will figure it out when you absolutely have to.

Amato: That is great. Another thing I want you to touch on is, I heard you say this about leaders. Again, let’s go back to the leadership topic. I like that you said, it’s not just about people with a title, anyone can be a leader. This concept: If I’m not whole, I’m not helping anybody. Do you think enough people remember to focus on their own self-care?

Croneberger: No. Before you even finish that sentence, I will tell you no.

Amato: Exactly.

Croneberger: I was just talking to a client of mine today, and they were talking about, “I can’t wait. I finally have vacation coming up.” I said, “When’s the next one after this?” and they were like, “I don’t know.” I said, “Well, maybe plan it.” They looked at me, and they were like, “But I have one next week.”

“OK, and then what happens after that? Then you get too busy. Because as I recall, this is your first vacation in a year.” They were like, “OK. Touché.”

I think we try and we think about it and we think, that would be great if I had time. Now, the thing about the word self-care, and I know a lot of people have this vision of self-care is going and getting a massage and treating yourself to a day at the spa, going out and playing some golf, taking a walk, go on a hike. You can do those, those are great, and it doesn’t have to be just that. Self-care could also be, between calls in between meetings, I’m going to build in a 15-minute window for me to go outside and breathe in the fresh air. I’m going to come down off of all of the meetings I had all day. I’m going to take a moment before I move to my next thing.

And schedule it. This is the part we’re not really good at. “I need to get to the gym four times a week” or whatever your thing is: Is it on your calendar? Because you say these things are important. But what happens is if that’s the first thing to go when you’re in a time crunch — and look, I’m talking to myself right now. I need to hear this just as much as anyone else. I just had this conversation like, “No, I have to build it in. You had to put it on your calendar. You have to be on your calendar.” If you’re not on your calendar, what happens? Nothing. I don’t know if you’re like me, but I live and die by my calendar.

Every day is different for me. I’ve got to know where I need to be next, who I’m talking to, where I’m going, what I’m doing. If I am not on that calendar, I am not a priority. And I can’t serve my clients. I can’t show up fully for my family or my friends — if I don’t have all of me. And I have to make sure that I work on that. That’s a work in progress every day, but it has to be on my calendar.

Amato: That’s also a technology tip. Our phones can be detrimental to our health, but we can also use them in the right ways.

Croneberger: That’s right.

Amato: By silencing notifications and setting those calendar reminders to stay on track with things.

Croneberger: It’s cool. The phone actually [allows you to] put yourself in that mode of silencing notifications. You tell people, this window, I’m in work mode, or I’m going to now go and hang out with my family mode and you can’t get a hold of me then, and that’s OK.

We’re so used to instant, I can get a hold of anyone at any given moment. That’s not great. Let’s stop doing that.

Amato: May is Mental Health Awareness Month. This episode — very likely to be published before May. But how do you think mental health awareness has changed in the past five years or so?

Croneberger: Thankfully, I think that it has grown, and I don’t think it’s grown enough. I think that there’s a lot to be said about mental health, and I’m a huge advocate of your mental health is just as important as your physical health — sometimes for some people, more important. I think that we talk about self-care. Again, I’ll bring up going to the gym or doing things physically. Going to the gym [also] releases all of that, all those chemicals in your brain, all those hormones that you need to feel good, even emotionally and mentally.

I think there’s a lot to be said about recognizing in the workplace that this is a real thing. Loneliness actually has been studied in the workplace as an epidemic. It’s been studied across the globe as an epidemic before COVID-19 was a thing. Now imagine what we just went through, and being asked to disconnect and separate drives that up a little bit. We’re seeing a lot of that coming off of these last few years where people are struggling and people are finding, needing to find a connection more now than ever. Because that will boost and help mental health.

But I think anywhere you are, there’s resources. There’s things that you can do, and I think seeing them more out there, I think is promising. We’re seeing people talk about it more. Personally, I have battled depression and anxiety my whole life, and I talk openly about it because I want people to know. And people will say to me, “You laugh more than anyone I know.”

That’s what they say to me even after I said, right, because this also is the face of depression and anxiety that I am — I love my life. I am great. I feel great. I’m happy. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have those things where I don’t go through that throughout my lifetime. I know the resources that I have, I know what I need to do to make myself feel good, and that’s really important. It’s important that we talk about it openly. It’s important that we remove the stigma from that and recognize it as, it’s just another thing that we need to be able to talk about and help each other with.

Amato: Thanks to Jen Croneberger for that meaningful conversation. Again, she’s the keynote speaker June 17 at the AICPA & CIMA Not-for-Profit Industry Conference. Details on that event will be in the show notes for this episode. This is Neil Amato. Thanks for listening to the Journal of Accountancy podcast.